This week’s reread is featuring Hoid, so you just know it’s going to be full of witticisms and mysteries! Our favorite world-hopper’s never straight forward about anything, and he’s certainly in rare form this week as he drops hints about everything from his age to his role in the Cosmere. And along the way, he imparts a bit of wholesome advice to Shallan, nestled in amongst the jokes and snark.
Reminder: We’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the entire novel in each reread. There are multiple Cosmere hints scattered throughout the discussion, because Hoid, so be wary of that. But if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Shallan/Veil
WHERE: Kholinar, an inn in the marketplace
WHEN: 1174.1.10.3—Immediately after Chapter 67
Shallan and Wit/Hoid chat in an Inn.
(Phew, that was a tough one this week, guys. I think I need to go lie down for awhile.)
Truth, Love, and Defiance
Title: Aim for the Sun
“Why are you here?”
“To open the Oathgate,” Shallan said. “Save the city.”
Pattern hummed.
“Lofty goals,” Wit said.
“What’s the point of goals, if not to spur you to something lofty?”
“Yes, yes. Aim for the sun. That way if you miss, at least your arrow will fall far away, and the person it kills will likely be someone you don’t know.”
AA: I really like the choice of title this week. For all the witty repartee, Shallan is sincere in her desire to do a very important thing—not for the sake of “having lofty goals” but because it desperately needs to be done, and she’s the tool best suited for the task. At the same time, considering what their small party is up against, it’s aiming very, very high. Naturally, Wit has just the right words… and a snarky tagline to keep it from being saccharine.
Heralds
Joker
L: This one’s pretty self-explanatory—Hoid’s here.
AA: Indeed. And he’s very much in wild-card mode, too.
Icon
Pattern
Epigraph
My research into the cognitive reflections of spren at the tower has been deeply illustrative. Some thought that the Sibling had withdrawn from men by intent—but I find counter to that theory.
—From drawer 1-1, first zircon
L: Oooooh now this is a juicy little tidbit. Before we get into the intent bit, I’d like to point out that it’s interesting that the Knights Radiant of old didn’t have a name for the Sibling either. Cultivation and Honor had proper names, sibling is more… a descriptor. Why is so little known about them? And what drew them away?!
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Oathbringer
AA: I hadn’t thought about that before; apparently it’s been just “Sibling” for a long, long time. I’ll bet the Parsh had another name for them at one time; I’d sure like to know what it was! (Nightwatcher, too.) I have a feeling that any other name might give away more about the Sibling than Sanderson wants to reveal just yet. (Let me just say, if/when he does give us another name, he’d better include a good reason for leaving all the gemstone references as “Sibling”!)
This is the first of three gemstones in this particular drawer. We’ll deal with all three as a unit when we get to Chapter 70; this week we’ll just look at the first. Here we have an Elsecaller who’s been peeking into Shadesmar to see what the spren around the tower look like there. Why?? Were they being corrupted, like the ones we’re seeing in the main timeline in Kholinar? Did the Sibling withdraw to avoid contamination by Sja-anat? Was Odium attempting to annex the Sibling as “his superspren” to match NW/Cultivation and SF/Honor, causing the Sibling to recoil away from humanity and spren alike?
At this point, I’m beginning to think the Unmade were converging on Urithiru, maybe challenging the Sibling. We know (or think we know) that Re-Shephir was trapped in the cellar by a Lightweaver. Was Sja-anat nearby corrupting the spren? Was Moelach affecting the Truthwatchers’ visions? Was Nergaoul causing some of the flaring tempers that the gemstones hint at? Ah, so many questions.
Stories & Songs
“Are you one of them?” Shallan blurted out. “Are you a Herald, Wit?”
“Heavens, no,” Wit said. “I’m not stupid enough to get mixed up in religion again. The last seven times I tried it were all disasters. I believe there’s at least one god still worshipping me by accident.”
L: It’s so hard to know what’s legit and what’s BS with him. This could very well be real, for all we know.
AA: In the beta, someone suggested that he might be referring to the Court of Gods on Nalthis with that last remark. I’d thought of it in terms of the Shardic Vessels, but I have to admit, Nalthis is more likely. Also sort of hilarious, when you think about it!
AP: Count me in the camp that thinks he’s telling the truth, or at least truthiness. He’s opening up to Shallan for some reason. He’s telling her that he’s not what she thinks he is, and also that her world is much larger than she realizes. I have her pegged for more Cosmere involvement as a result, once her Rosharan adventures are over.
L: I could definitely see that. Hoid’s obviously taken quite a shine to her.
“Child, when [the Heralds] were but babes, I had already lived dozens of lifetimes. ‘Old’ is a word you use for worn shoes. I’m something else entirely.”
AA: I mean… it’s not like we didn’t know this, but he says it straight out! (… well, “straight” for Hoid. With him, all adjectives are relative.) It’s fascinating to get this glimpse into his past, especially with it all smashed together like this. Here’s young Shallan, trying to figure out how to function in the present, and the Unmade, who are much, much older, and the Heralds, who are apparently even older… and then there’s Hoid, who was already ancient when they were born.
“But others up on the platform actually know the spren—specifically, the creature known as the Heart of the Revel.”
“One of the Unmade.”
AP: Dun dun DUN! This will be the second direct Unmade encounter for Kholinar. (The first being Aesudan/Yelig-nar.)
Bruised & Broken
The prices raised Shallan’s eyebrows…
L: Just noting that Shallan has dropped out of “Veil” entirely here. And Wit notices this as well:
“You’re walking like a prim lighteyes, which looks silly in that costume. You’ll only be able to pull off a coat and a hat if you own them.”
“I know,” she said, grimacing. “The persona… fled once you recognized me.”
AA: I can’t help wondering, as I’m sure we’re supposed to: Was her persona affected by something magical about Hoid, or was she herself simply unable to maintain it? I guess I’m trying to figure out whether this is magic affecting her, or plain old human self-consciousness. Or, perhaps, in the face of someone who knows her deeply, her personality-disorder issues are squashed out by Truth.
AP: I don’t think she’s able to maintain a persona when the other person knows her. I don’t think the issues are squashed, and she does have some features of dissociative identity disorder, but she knows the personas are fictions. The main persona she has that is truly dissociative is Shallan the lighteyes vs. Shallan the childhood trauma victim (her core self).
L: That’s a good point, actually, Aubree. We often see her dropping her alternate personalities when she’s interacting with people she knows well, or who know her well—Adolin and Kaladin for the most part. This is usually when we see the most instances of her waffling on her name attribution in internal dialogue.
AA: It’s a good reminder that Shallan is an extremely unreliable narrator. She’s not maliciously lying to lead us astray, but her view of the world—and more especially, her view of herself—is just wrong. Right now, she still knows Veil is a disguise, even though she uses the word “persona” and is already beginning to credit “Veil” with actual personality traits. Later on, she’s going to get much worse… but we’ll talk about that when we get there.
“Some men, as they age, grow kinder. I am not one of those, for I have seen how the cosmere can mistreat the innocent—and that leaves me disinclined toward kindness. Some men, as they age, grow wiser. I am not one of those, for wisdom and I have always been at cross-purposes, and I have yet to learn the tongue in which she speaks. Some men, as they age, grow more cynical. I, fortunately, am not one of those. If I were, the very air would warp around me, sucking in all emotion, leaving only scorn.”
L: Hoid’s just so damn quotable. But I put this here, in this section, mostly for that first bit about kindness. I always find it fascinating how writers deal with pseudo- or actual-immortals. It makes sense, in a way, that he would be disinclined towards kindness considering all the things he has seen (of which I am sure we know only the tiniest portion). But just because it’s understandable doesn’t necessarily make it right. And it’s worthwhile to note that Hoid actually is a great deal kinder than I think he wants to admit to himself. He obviously cares for Shallan. He helped Kaladin out of a rough spot. He seems to have a soft spot for the broken people left in the wake of the wars which sweep over the Cosmere. Because he’s a broken person himself as well, I wonder?
AP: What I like about the Cosmere is that we see examples of all of these! It’s practically filthy with immortals of one flavor or another, and they all respond to the challenge differently.
L: I have to admit, I’m partial to immortals (probably due to a certain film/TV show I loved when I was in my formative years). So I totally agree, I love that the Cosmere is simply overrun with them. Just as long as we never wind up with a Quickening situation…
“When I was young… I made a vow. … I said I’d always be there when I was needed.”
L: This could be taken so many different ways…
AP: I really want Hoid’s backstory! Especially since it seems that the one he is in Kholinar for is the spren…
L: Sucks that we’re going to be waiting a long time for it.
“Elhokar though, he worries about the wrong things. His father wore a simple crown because he needed no reminder of his authority. Elhokar wears a simple crown because he worries that something more lavish might make people look at it, instead of at him. He doesn’t want the competition.”
L: I’m really not sure if I agree with Wit’s assessment here. I find it more likely that he’s only wearing it because his father did and he’s trying so hard to keep traditions. Now… that’s not much better than what Wit suggested, not in comparison to Gavilar. Elhokar is, for certain, a weak king. But I think Wit’s doing him a disservice by not accepting the fact that he’s trying to change.
AP: Wit hasn’t been around for Elhokar’s self improvement plan. It’s very recent, and I think the assessment is accurate from when he left the shattered plains.
AA: It was at least accurate from the public face Elhokar put on. Well before the end of Words of Radiance, Elhokar came to Kaladin to seek answers, which implies that he’s been watching Kaladin and trying to figure out how to be all that. Since it was all internal, Wit didn’t see any of it; one of the last things he observed about Elhokar before he took off again was the temper tantrum at the arena, when Kaladin put his size 10 right in the middle of the carefully crafted Sadeas-trap. He stayed long enough to see Dalinar respond to Sadeas’s public twisting of the visions, and Elhokar being completely weak and powerless. So he has reason to think poorly of Elhokar, but I agree with Lyn—he’s wrong.
Places & Peoples
The only difference between Shallan’s meal and Wit’s was the sauce—hers sweet, his spicy, though his had the sauce in a cup at the side. Food supplies were tight, and the kitchen wasn’t preparing both masculine and feminine dishes.
AA: I had to note this, because it’s come up so many times in previous discussions. When resources are inadequate, you make the same basic food for everyone, and then (if you can) you make small amounts of sauce to distinguish between the men’s and the women’s.
Also, just because I’m curious, what’s with Wit getting Shallan to eat all the food?
Tight Butts and Coconuts
“Secure your wine well this evening, for the revolution will be swift, vengeful, and intoxicated!”
L: Someone remind me to petition Team Dragonsteel to put this on a shirt. I’d wear the heck out of it.
AP: I mean, a month before JordanCon is totally enough time to print shirts, right???
“You shouldn’t push people down the stairs for being sincere. You push people down the stairs for being stupid.”
L: Wise words indeed.
AP: Bad Lyn! Don’t push people down the stairs!
L: What if they’re little flights of stairs? Like… three or four steps?
AP: Then YEET!
L: As you wish.
“Sadeas counts twice.”
“Um… he’s dead, Wit.”
“What?” Wit sat up straight. … “Someone offed old Sadeas, and I missed it?”
L: Good to know that Wit’s got his priorities straight.
AP: Also a good reminder that Wit doesn’t know everything.
AA: Also, “I’d have applauded.” Heh. I don’t always agree with Wit, but we’re as one on this!
“He does grow on you, I suppose. Like a fungus.”
L: Gotta give it to him, he does have some great insults. (But not in-sluts.)
“Also, tell the innkeeper I disappeared in a puff of smoke. It will drive him crazy.”
L: I really do adore him.
AA: And at the same time, I get so frustrated. He manages to hide some good advice in his banter from time to time, but how many times has he turned a poignant moment-in-waiting into a joke, just when we thought we were going to learn something? Bah! (But I still love him.)
Cosmere Connections
“To be honest, ‘there’ has—so far—been a random location that is of absolutely no use to anyone.”
L: Is he implying that the place where he’s most needed is specific, and he knows where it is? Or is he speaking in generalizations? Argh, he makes my head hurt sometimes.
AP: I think that’s exactly what he’s saying. He knows where to go, but not why. Often his appearances are completely tangential to the main events on planet.
L: I hope that when we do wind up getting his story, it’s told something like Secret History or Ender’s Shadow where we see the same events playing out a second time, but from his perspective.
AP: I think that would be really awesome! I love those types of narrative shifts.
AA: There’d better be a little more backstory before we get to that part, though. I need to know more about Yolen, Adonalsium, and the Vessels before they were Vessels! But yes, seeing critical events of the (by then about 30) other books from his perspective would be marvy.
“I can know where I’m supposed to be, Shallan, but not always what I’m supposed to do there.”
L: This seems like he’s saying that it’s some sort of supernatural ability, like a… a premonition, or precognitive ability? Interestingly, Shallan calls him out on this later:
“Be wary of anyone who claims to be able to see the future, Shallan.”
“Except you, of course. Didn’t you say you can see where you need to be?”
“Be wary,” he repeated, “of anyone who claims to be able to see the future, Shallan.”
L: Yikes. That’s foreboding. Also… I wonder if he’s giving her a specific warning about the Truthwatchers, here? Or if he’s—again—speaking in more general terms.
AP: Why not both? I think that, as is often a flaw in precog characters, they see potential futures, but the characters have free will, so no future is set in stone (or metal).
AA: Truthwatchers, sure—meaning Renarin, at this point—but also Taravangian, Odium, and Wit himself. Probably even Cultivation. It could be that right here, Wit is vaguely hoping that Shallan will be able to pass this on to Renarin, to somehow help him start to realize that his visions are only those potential futures.
Interestingly enough, I just ran across a WoB on the subject—about how one person who sees the potential future and acts to change it can really mess up someone else who thought they saw the future. I have a sneaking suspicion that this is going to be more important later.
AP: We see that directly in Mistborn. Two atium burners neutralize one another.
“Yes, yes. I’m so storming clever that half the time, even I can’t follow what I’m talking about.”
L: Well, at least he realizes it.
“The cult reminds me of a group I knew long ago. Equally dangerous, equally foolish.”
L: Do you suppose this is something we’ve seen in another book, or is it something we haven’t seen in print yet? The only thing I can think of that comes even close are the Survivor’s followers, but they’re not really anything like the Cult of Moments in most respects…
AP: I also thought of the Church of the Survivor, but it could definitely be something we don’t know about yet.
L: Hoid’s intense dislike of Kelsier could definitely be playing into his annoyance at this particular cult following.
AA: My first thought was of the Vessels plotting to shatter Adonalsium, or possibly the rise of the Seventeenth Shard. Given the length of Hoid’s history, it could be just about anything. It could even be the Heralds. (I think the Envisagers are too recent to fit the comment.)
“Do you know anything about Wit?” she asked Pattern.
“No,” Pattern said. “He feels like… mmm… one of us.”
L: Maybe because he spends a fair amount of time in the cognitive realm?
AP: Good theory! Or perhaps because he’s “other”, not really human anymore as a result of being around too much investiture for too long.
L: So what you’re saying is, he’s basically a…
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
I can’t make the gate work; the spren of the fabrial won’t obey me.
AA: Given his apparent ability to get where he needs to go by mysterious magical means, I can’t think Hoid really cares that much about working the Oathgates. But it’s a great sneak peek at what the team is going to find when they end up in Shadesmar! Up till this moment, I don’t think we knew the Oathgates were controlled by specific spren, did we? And he specifically names it a fabrial, which the readers assumed and the characters weren’t sure of. I’m a little surprised Shallan didn’t react to some of this, but she was focused on the Cult and might not have been paying as much attention as she could have been.
Sheer Speculation
“There are two kinds of important men, Shallan. There are those who, when the boulder of time rolls towards them, stand up in front of it and hold out their hands. … Those men end up squished.”
L: It pains me ever so much to say this, but I think this is foreshadowing a death. Whether it’s Kaladin, Dalinar, or Adolin, I can’t say, but… (it literally pains me to type the words) my spheres are on Kaladin.
AP: Or it could be Elhokar. At this very moment Elhokar thinks that he can change the course of events in Kholinar just by showing up.
AA: I was thinking Elhokar too, although it’s pretty generally applicable. You could say it fit Gavilar. But I do think more of our beloved characters are going to die in the next two books. Kaladin seems a likely candidate, especially if you think of this as foreshadowing.
Oddly enough, the descriptive part also fits Vasher, but he didn’t end up squished. Also, it kind of fits past!Dalinar (though half the time he was the boulder), and he got pretty well squished; he just doesn’t remember it yet.
“Other men stand to the side when the boulder of time passes, but are quick to say, ‘See what I did! I made the boulder roll there. Don’t make me do it again! Those men end up getting everyone else squished.”
L: Kelsier. Elhokar.
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A Hero Born
AA: Sadeas. Also Gavilar, sometimes. Also, maybe, possibly… Hoid?
“Is there not a third type of person?”
“There is, but they are oh so rare. These know they can’t stop the boulder. So they walk beside it, study it, and bide their time. Then they shove it—ever so slightly—to create a deviation in its path.
“These are the men… well, these are the men who actually change the world. And they terrify me. For men never see as far as they think they do.”
L: In a way, this is mirroring Kaladin’s actions in book 1. He made changes that he thought were small—but they affected the entire army in ways he didn’t foresee, because he couldn’t see the big picture. I wonder which of the three types Hoid sees himself as. I’d lean towards the third.
AP: I think you’re probably right. I also agree that Kaladin is in this group. Small actions can have major consequences. That’s a major recurring theme in Stormlight Archive as a whole: Lirin stealing the spheres, Kaladin volunteering for the army and winning a Shardblade, training the Bridgeman, Elhokar sending Moash’s grandparents to jail, Dalinar being a generally bad husband through carelessness, etc. Many of the characters’ actions are small individually, but set off huge avalanches of consequences.
AA: I think Hoid is actively trying to avoid being any of them, but really he either is, or has been, all three. Would he see the Seventeenth Shard as part of this group, or the second? Taravangian most definitely fits this list.
Quality Quotations
- “Having power is a terrible burden, the worst thing imaginable, except for every other alternative.”
AP: Preach!
- “Power is a knife,” Wit said, taking his seat. “A terrible, dangerous knife that can’t be wielded without cutting yourself.”
- “Hedonism has never been about enjoyment, Shallan, but the opposite. … It’s listening to beautiful music, performed so loud as to eliminate all subtlety–taking something beautiful and making it carnal.”
AA: So true.
- “You want to change the world, Shallan. That’s well and good. But be careful. The world predates you. She has seniority.”
There’s still a lot in this chapter that we didn’t address, so feel free to bring it all up in the comments! Next week, we’re tentatively only planning to tackle Chapter 69 unless we get a sudden charge of adrenaline and take Chapter 70 as well. Kaladin’s mission assignment coming up!
Alice is busy jumping from music to writing to doll-clothes to drama props. Always something new! Also, the beta readers are officially not apologizing for the Starsight release date moving to December.
Lyndsey is in a sequinned hell of her own making. If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook, find her on IG under @kiarrens, or check out her website.
Aubree is back from she can’t tell you where doing she can’t tell you what. Don’t pay any attention to her new spren.
Hoid is honestly one of my favorite characters. So many thoughts on him. Can’t wait until Dragonsteel.
1. “When I was young… I made a vow. … I said I’d always be there when I was needed.” I’ve always thought that Hoid was essentially on a redemption tour, and to me, this pretty much confirms it. He has to be a tragic hero, right?
2. Hoid has always been kind. I’m thinking of moments like the family at the end of the book. A truly heart-warming moment.
3. I would think that he seems himself – or saw himself – as the third kind of person. The Shards before they were Shards sound like a group that thought they knew better.
4. I agree that Shallan is probably the most likely to worldhop, but I think Kaladin would be the better fit. Or maybe even Lift? I’m kind of hoping we’ll get a lot more backstory on how people worldhop when the Heralds reflect on their journey from Ashyn.
Some men, as they age, grow wiser. I am not one of those, for wisdom and I have always been at cross-purposes, and I have yet to learn the tongue in which she speaks.
The way that Hoid refers to wisdom as she, makes me think that Wisdom might actually be one of the shards that we haven’t met yet.
Not much to say about this chapter; lots and lots of talkie-talkie. We could discuss Hoid’s past, but it will be a loooong time (real world-wise) before we get to his backstory.
Regarding Wit saying the Cult of Moments reminded him of a group he knew long ago: I also immediately thought of Kelsier’s followers, but I got very focused on long ago, and knowing Hoid’s long ago might be very very long ago indeed, I tried to think of some older possibilities of groups. Might they be the followers of Alendi? They were certainly foolish and dangerous, almost leading to the end of life on Scadrial. My pet theory right now is that he was talking about the Ire. It is such a vague description here, however, that there’s not much benefit in a great deal of analysis because there’s nothing to support any speculation except wishful thinking.
Regarding Wit’s opinions of Elhokar: I think it’s important to note here that Hoid has seen a great many people in positions of power. His standards could be very high if he chooses to use the best examples as his frame of reference. Even if he was fully aware of Elhokar’s road-to-redemption, he likely would not be impressed.
One counterpoint to the idea that Shallan falls out of her personas around those she knows: she actually created Radiant when with Adolin.
Edit: Additional thought, I’d like to see Jasnah as a post-Stormlight worldhopper. She’s an Elsecaller so seems like that would be super easy for her. I also think it’d be awesome to see her and Khriss interact.
I love the Wit and Shallan chapters. I love them mostly because Shallan is being herself instead of pretending to be this sickening Veil. My thoughts on “Shallan the lighteyed” and “Shallan the traumatized child” are they have always been the same. Shallan however thinks if she allows herself to remember, she’d be broken, defeated, a quivering ball of tears, but reality is she is much stronger than she believes. She can deal with reality, she is strong enough, but she has somehow convinced herself she wasn’t, hence the imagery of the broken child, hence the personas. All spur from the fact Shallan doesn’t think she can accomplish much, on her own. She either needs to forget or to be someone else and since she hates herself, those someone else become more attractive, more interesting than *just her*.
I find it hard to predict which ones of the main characters will surely die, by the end of book 5 and which ones will survive. The rock metaphor might apply to all characters: Kaladin’s may lack the strength to face the rock, Dalinar’s rigidity may have him try to take the rock all by himself, Shallan’s over-confidence (though she realistically deals with it in OB) might get her to think the rock will not crush her, Adolin’s lack of magical powers may have him tumble down with the rock towards his death.
Hard to say but, as a reader, I do expect either Kaladin, Shallan or Dalinar to die within the first half though Brandon may surprise us and write the “everyone lives” ending.
@@.-@: Good point. Shallan created Radiant to face learning how to use her Patternblade though she kept on losing the disguise. She struggled to keep it up when around Adolin. I have read many theories putting all the blame for Radiant’s existence and Shallan’s personality splitting on Adolin’s shoulders for having insisted she learn how to use her Blade, but I disgree. Shallan has definitely been “other people” whenever close to those who know her.
Most likely this is why The Diagram cannot account for Renarin.
Also, just a reminder, but Hoid is using the properties of Fortune (not necessarily Feruchemical Chromium) to be where he is needed.
@6 LazerWulf
In this case, don’t we know The Diagram actually did not access Fortune nor the Spiritual Realm and therefore is not future-sight related (because Odium said this directly in Chapter 122). It was essentially just a very smart guess and because of that (not necessarily future-sight interference) it is fallible. Of course a very smart guess could also be disrupted by someone seeing the actual future and deciding to change it, so your point could still be valid.
I just love this chapter, despite his seemingly non importance, Hoid is one of my favorite characters because what he represents, a peek into the Cosmere, I love world hoppers, and what they represent in the grand scheme of things. This chapter also makes Hoid even more mysterious, he clearly does care about Shallan, and wants to help her, and not just part of his plan. It’s probably why he picked up Sigzil as a apprentice as well. I still think he’s either going to be the real Big Bad, or at least is going to make things worst for “the greater good” but it’s more about stopping Odium and probably the rest of the shards more than anything else. this is also probably the only time I also liked Shallan in this book, where she isn’t lost in herself and just frustrating in general, where she could get some help; now if she only listens to his advice.
Theory time! This conversation makes me think that if the Sleepless whose words are on the back covers of the books is correct and “[Kaladin, Szeth, Shallan, or Dalinar] may redeem us. One of them will destroy us,” it’ll be Shallan who destroys them (whether “us” means “Aimians” or “Roshar,” IDK). Hoid is explicitly telling her that no human can see how much damage they could do when they try to change the world, and her response is basically “eh, I’m gonna try anyway.” It feels like foreshadowing, to me. On top of that, she seems like the least vigilant Radiant, the person most likely to unintentionally become a pawn for Odium; she’s constantly putting herself into situations where she’s in over her head because she doesn’t want to admit that she’s not in control and needs to ask for help. I think that out of those 4 characters, she’s the only one who’s getting more cracked as time goes by.
@9: I think the back blurb of OB may have come to pass…. I would argue the one to “destroy us” and the one to “save us” is the same individual: Dalinar. Dalinar fooled the plans when he refused to be Odium’s Champions, but all future predictions had him succumb. Hence, he would have been the one to “doom them all”, but he turned out being the one who “saved them all”.
I personally think Shallan is getting stronger, not more cracked. She has now come to realize/accept she needs to deal with her past, she can no longer ignore it nor use means to pretend it never happened. Of course, it is difficult, but the mere face she has decided she would try not to hate herself, the mere fact she sends Veil/Radiant away, at the end of OB, tells me she is on a good path, not on a negative paths.
Actually, I find all Radiants are going onto an upward path.
So first comments:
Interesting theories on the Sibling! Can’t wait to find out more!
I wonder if this vow Hoid took plays into his “fortune” power. That the vow took on a magical or supernatural component and that is why he is always where “he needs to be”.
I think Wit’s reaction to Sadeas was Something Important, and the jokes at the end were a (poor, IMO) attempt at covering it up. He genuinely had no idea that Sadeas was dead. Anything that blindsides someone as nearly omniscient as Hoid has to be important.
@1 Keyblazing
Theoretically Kaladin could world hop in a way different than anyone else. He could fly there. Brandon has confirmed that for astronauts, windrunners would be the best because they could make their own pressure bubble. The issue of course would be having enough stormlight and being able to get the spren off planet. Would be funny to see Kaladin pull “a whole new world” magic carpet ride, but by literally going to a whole new world lol.
@2 toothlessjoe
Interesting catch! That would be very cool if that was the case.
@3 Austin
But the best part about mysteries is thinking of what they may be! lol
@@.-@ ineptmage
Hmmmm, maybe he was referring to the Dakhor? Elantris spoilers below
They followed the skaze, which WoB have said are equivalent to spren. So it could be said the Dakhor follow spren, like the Cult of the Moments.
Just throwing ideas out. IRE could be a very valid possibility too.
Lol I agree on wanting to see Jasnah as a worldhopper. Always love to see more of her!
@6 LazerWulf
I agree on all points
@7 ineptmage
I thought the reverse. I thought we did have confirmation via WoB that it accessed the spiritual realm. I have to check. Will dig and get back to you.
@9 MauiWowee
Interesting theory!
Love the Hoid chapters and I can’t wait for Dragonsteel.
On a completey different note…
I’m not a writer myself but I would like to make a pitch to those who do Fan Fic…
Untitled: A Sander-verse Novella
In Which…
Hoid tells (vocally and magically) the story of that one time Wayne & Life grabbed Nightblood and took a ride in M-Bot to slay some evil. I really NEED this dialog in my life.
I have $5 on the kickstarter right now if someone will write it!
@7 ineptmage
Found the WoB. I posted them both below for reference
ShadowSgt [PENDING REVIEW]
Taravangian. When he made the Diagram he said it was “his brightest day”. Would you say that he was more towards the Cognitive realm or more towards the Spiritual realm?
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Spiritual.
Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
So the scene at the end of Oathbringer, when Odium is confronting Taravangian and he uses futuresight to expand upon the Diagram, we have this blacked out section with Renarin’s name linked to it.
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Yes.
Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
Is that because Renarin’s abilities interfere with Odium’s futuresight similar to how electrum interferes with atium?
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Any time that someone else is seeing the future in the cosmere, it’s going to have ripples against your ability. Like they are– you can’t– It’s the same sort of thing that if… someone who has access to atium is going to mess up anyone else’s futuresight in any way, because once you use that it’s going to cause you to act differently, which then– And remember futuresight is not very good in the cosmere anyway. But yeah, it’s just gonna mess things up.
@13 Scath I do wonder how long it would take someone like Kal to world hop by just going into space, I would think traveling the cognitive realm would just be….faster lol and would you want to be stuck with syl for years at a time, “kal….are we there yet? no. are we there yet? no! how about now!”
@Several I do like the idea of one of the radients joining Odium, though arguably, Odium does have his own “knights” now, Maya and Moarsh. the two are clearly set up to be anti Shallan and anti Kaladin, with Tavaragarin possibly being anti Dalinar. Maybe this is the foreshadowing of Renarain, he can’t prepare for him.
@16: Maya is the anti-Shallan? Can you expand on what you meant here? Or perhaps did you mean Malata?
You need to compare the Sibling to the Stormfather and Nightwatcher, not their parents.
Note that the Stormlight Archive has a strong theme of sibling relationships. (Venli/Eshonai, Kaladin/Tien/New One Whose Name I Am Forgetting, Shallan and her brothers, Jasnah/Elhokar, Adolin/Renarin, Gavilar/Dalinar). Anyone named “sibling” is probably important.
I think I already posted: Stormfather is a splinter (son) of Honor. Nightwatcher is explicitly called Cultivation’s daughter. “The Sibling” pretty much as to be the result of Shard-sex between those two.
“Heavens,” Hoid? I see what you did there.
He comments about it. She was literally starving herself out of guilt because of all those hungry people. Hoid is immortal, so starvation is not a problem for him.
@ineptmage
As mentioned, it would seem the Diagram is actually Fortune. Odium is just wrong. He is not infallible.
@17 Shoot, I did mean Malata, sure we didn’t get much out of her yet, but someone using her powers as very destructive vs. Shallan’s power of illusion and pretty much seeming of life is a good contrast. Yeah, I got the names confused, my bad.
@16 Steven Hedge
Lol, I believe it depends on how space is viewed. Right now the cognitive realm is faster because since space is not overly thought about, the distance is shorter. Once technology increases to view space more accurately, and begin attempting to travel it, the distance in the cognitive realm will grow to the point where it may be better to travel physically in the physical realm, rather than walk in the cognitive realm. Ironically enough I could see Taldain being a good way point as the sun provides investiture so a space faring craft could technically “recharge” just by passing by it. I am very interested in seeing Roshar Magitech, and Scadrial medallion tech in the future. Full geek mode! lol.
I know you later clarified that you meant Malata, but I read somewhere a theory that the spren were betrayed because they might have found out after honor died about the humans blowing up the last planet, so concerned about that happening again, they were going to side with Odium. The betrayal killed them preventing them from switching sides. That would paint a darker picture of Adolin potentially reviving Maya as that would mean he would be finding a way to give Odium more tools to wipe out humanity. Not saying I believe the theory myself, and I hope I did an adequate job relating it, but I thought it was interesting to think about.
@18 Carl
Posted the WoB regarding the Diagram, Spiritual Realm, and Future sight earlier for your reference.
I really loved this chapter and yes, it seems likely that Shallan will become a world-hopper eventually, but I’d really prefer if it happened to Jasnah instead. Lift already has the ability to use her surges wherever, but she, like Shallan would be limited to the worlds with Perpendicularities, while Jasnah, if she ever figures out the Investiture supply, could go places closed to other world-hoppers. And yea, I’d really love her to interact with Khriss, but also and possibly even more so – with Harmony. Imagine all the philosophical debates about godhood and religion that they could have!
Was I the only one who was a bit put off by Hoid only speaking about “men” in relation to that boulder of history? I know that it used to be how one referred to humanity in general, but the usage has been changing to something more neutral during the last years…
Concerning Vasher, personally, I think that it is quite likely that he’ll die during SA. IMHO, there are a lot of subtle hints that Endowment was playing a long game when she Returned the 5 Scholars and that the reason that all of them seemed to fail in fulfilling their purpose and that they seemed to be drawn to Roshar was that they were intended to do something there. And that only Vasher is going to be in position to do so – but then, the majority of the Returned probably fail anyway, given that most of them only live for a week, but have missions much farther in the future than that.
@21 SoA?
Hoid’s comment about the arrow shot falling far away and killing a person the shooter does not know is somewhat of foreshadowing. As of this exact moment, Shallan does not know the street urchin she gives the food to. He winds up dead as a result of her actions. Though it was certainly not Shallan’s intention to kill the street urchin.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
“Be wary of anyone who claims to be able to see the future, Shallan.”
“Except you, of course. Didn’t you say you can see where you need to be?”
“Be wary,” he repeated, “of anyone who claims to be able to see the future, Shallan.”
Hoid is simply saying that she shouldn’t trust him too much. He also warned Dalinar that they might have different goals.
“Is there not a third type of person?”
“There is, but they are oh so rare. These know they can’t stop the boulder. So they walk beside it, study it, and bide their time. Then they shove it—ever so slightly—to create a deviation in its path.
“These are the men… well, these are the men who actually change the world. And they terrify me. For men never see as far as they think they do.”
That reminds me of the Lord Ruler’s attempt to save the world when he took the power but didn’t have the knowledge to use it properly.
Jasnah is the obvious future worldhopper (she already halfway got there).
@BenW: “@21 SoA?”
I’m pretty sure that’s an eccentric way to abbreviate “Stormlight Archive”. Or just a typo.
@Scáth @carl
The WoB suggesting The Diagram comes from the Spiritual Realm and Odium saying that it didn’t is kind of an unsatisfying inconsistency, though I accept it. Why have Odium say those capital letter Cosmere things if the statement is not even true? Surely Odium is aware of the nature of Taravangian’s condition.
@24 birgit
Good classification of the Lord Ruler here; I had the same thought. And it wasn’t just what he did with the power after taking it up, but also in his decision to kill Alendi to begin with.
And now I’m wondering if there might be a 4th type of “great man”. Not one who stands in the way of the boulder. Not one who stands beside the boulder and takes credit. Not one who shoves the boulder ever so slightly. I’m thinking the 4th type of person IS the boulder.
@16, @20, I believe there’s a WoB out there that says that Era 3 (at the time, now Era 4) of Mistborn uses Allomantic Cadmium and Bendalloy to power their FTL drives. Aside from that and the Ones Above (from Sixth of the Dusk), all other mentions of World Hopping have been through the Cognitive Realm, where the minds of men are much closer than they are in the Physical Realm. I would imagine that there’s not a lot of Empty Space in the Cognitive Realm (Wit: Except around Sadeas. Hey-O!)
Speaking of, is there a WoB that mentions whether Shadesmar is the name for the Cognitive Realm in general, or just the CR around Roshar? (I tend to believe the latter)
ETA: Further review of the Coppermind article on the Ones Above theorize that the the Ones Above ARE 4th-Era Scadrians.
As I read the comments about Renarin, I keep flashing on The Mule in Asimov’s Foundation Trilogy. The Mule and Renarin are/were wildcards and, like the Mule, Renarin just has to shake things up.
Dalinar isn’t the only one to break the Diagram/future. Jasnah did it too by loving Renerin and saving him even though he had a corrupted Spren. I agree that Hoid has a soft spot for Shallan but she also seems to be someone who shows up where Hoid needs to be.
Shallan, Dalinar and Kalidin are the heros in our story. That makes their actions the turning points I think.
@23 AndrewHB
Interesting insight! I could see that being foreshadowing.
@24 birgit
Here’s hoping to quite the adventurous future for Jasnsh!
@26 ineptmage
Welllllll there is the theory that everything Taravangian does is actually a plant of Cultivation working behind the scenes with the intention of Odium not realizing what is up till it is too late. So maybe he doesn’t in fact know the extent of what is going on with the Diagram? Again, totally a theory at this point, if a rather prevalent one, but still a theory.
What about the people that, for better or worst, start the boulder moving?
@27 LazerWulf
That is correct, though Brandon is very cagey on how they are used to accomplish FTL. We have WoB that being more aware of space would shrink it. That would encapsulate telescopes and the like. So as technology advances, and the population begins to think of space more, it would make the distance in the cognitive realm grow which would then necessitate finding alternative means of travel.
I would have to dig but I believe it is confirmed that Roshar terms the cognitive realm as shadesmar, not that it is a universal term.
That is the prevailing theory regarding the ones above.
@28 Earthbound
I agree. His very presence knowing the possible futures throws a wrench in Odium’s plans.
Yikes, there are a lot of comments ahead of me this week.
Last week we did a lot of talking about “who is the last bondsmith bonded to?” and it seemed like collectively we were leaning towards the sibling. (The idea being that being bonded during the recreance messed it up.) But this epigraph suggests to me that it probably wasn’t TS (the sibling) if TS was already withdrawn at that time. So for me that puts us right back at wondering whether nightwatcher or stormfather was the one.
@30 Scath
And what about the type of person that made the boulder, haha.
More seriously, I haven’t read up on the theories about Cultivation being sneaky with Taravangian, but it certainly makes sense. She was very deliberate with Dalinar and with her foresight it seems unlikely she’d set Taravangian up with such potential power for him to use it to serve Odium. However, she did acknowledge that she was taking a risk with Dalinar. Maybe Taravangian is a risk that didn’t turn out so well for her.
#31 soursavior
I agree that this suggests the Sibling was not the last Bondsmith’s spren, but there are potential explanations that could still make this fit into the Sibling being bonded AND withdrawing. After all, we did witness Syl “withdrawing” while Kaladin was breaking his oaths while bonded to her. Maybe the last Bondsmith’s “recreance” was a less sudden event than the memory-vision of the Recreance made it seem for the other orders.
@31: Not necessarily. Melishi was instrumental in the plan that captured Ba-Ado-Mishram, and eventually stealing the parsh’s ability to transform, which, as I mentioned in another chapter’s comments, is a far cry from “Uniting instead of Dividing”. Remember, Syl started acting weird in WoR when Kaladin was losing sight of his oaths. And I think the only way to know that The Sib was changing was if someone was bonded to it at the time.
Honor was dying at the time of the Recreance, but he wasn’t dead yet. I don’t think it was the Recreance itself that killed him, either, or he wouldn’t have been able to include Feverthorn Keep in his package of visions. People think of the Recreance as a single event, but it was probably something that was building gradually, as these gemstone attestations suggest, and Sib’s withdrawal could be a symptom of that, as well.
@10 Gepeto
My only nit to pick with that theory is that the Sleepless specify that there’s one who “may redeem us” but one who “will destroy us.” Now, considering that there’s a whole other discussion going on about how the Shards themselves don’t even have perfect future sight, it seems highly likely that the speaker’s just wrong, but IF they’re right, it means that -something- will be destroyed and maaaaybe someone will save their bacon, too. I never considered that it might be the same person, though – I like the idea, it’s very Sandersonian :D
In fact, mulling it over now, I just realized that if the Aimians are 100% of Cultivation / her most powerful pawns / tools / soldiers (I don’t remember if we’ve received confirmation on that or if it’s just a theory), this bit of prophecy could fit with my biggest theory (I hope this comes out right because it’d likely be the biggest twist in the series lol): that Cultivation is actually an antagonist. She set all the stuff in motion that kicked into gear 7 years ago, basically putting all of these people we’ve grown to love through a ton of pain and misfortune just to get a shot at killing Odium – willing to let him destroy the whole planet just to avenge her hubby – which is not very First Ideal of her. In this case, perhaps the Radiants have to destroy the Aimians to prevent her from succeeding, but eventually find a way to kill Odium without destroying the planet, thus redeeming their decidedly unpleasant actions. If this is the case, then I suppose that having the title of “one who destroys us” would actually be a very good thing, and if that’s not Sandersonian as **** then I don’t know what is.
@34 Actually…that is a fantastic theory, that I didn’t even think of it. THAT is very like sanderson, sure, Odium is nasty, but there is another one at play here…one that we just suspect is good because…well, they are against Odium. but there hasn’t been a shard yet that isn’t deceiving, even our favorite Steward back in Scadriel has had several plots and schemes brewing. I’m in! the only question is, if killing them would cause further destruction, Preservation and Ruin proved that killing a shard doesn’t kill or destroy one of the realms, it really depends on what happens to the Shard it self. and whether someone can just leave that power there. I don’t think even Hoid wants the shard itself, and just has been collecting the scraps.
Hoid might be my favorite. If we knew enough about him for him to actually be a favorite character. So much snark mixed up with wise words and cautions. Also a good reminder that he’s not omniscient. Could say a lot more, but I just don’t have the time! Thanks ladies for all you do!
@32 ineptmage
LOL
The basics of the theory are this: Taravangian asked for the capacity to save the world. He never specified how. The information he is receiving from the Diagram is although not out right false, is in such a way as to cause Taravangian to take specific actions. These actions become a chain of events leading to what Cultivation actually wants to happen. So for instance, Taravangian reading that Dalinar has to die, sends Szeth. Szeth trying to kill Dalinar brings him and Kaladin closer together, and helps move along Kaladin’s oaths, as well as helps lead Dalinar to swearing his first two oaths. Taravangian thinks Dalinar has to die to save the world, but the (potential) reality is Dalinar and Kaladin and co have to be pushed together by a common enemy. Taravangian was acting as this enemy from the shadows. This prepares the people who will actually save the world and get them to the places or do the actions necessary to win. So while Odium thinks the Diagram is trying to trap him into an agreement to preserve whats left of humanity, the reality is that the Diagram is a distraction while also moving pawns into place to defeat Odium. That is a rough summary. If you have any questions or want anything clarified, feel free to ask.
@34 MauiWowee
Interesting theory. So that kind of takes the Taravangian is a plant theory and really expanding it. Could be. I could see that being very possible. Not sure where I land on it yet, but definitely gives me something to think on!
@25 Wouldn’t the acronym be SA then. What does the “o” stand for?
Wait..reading the quote again that describes the title of the chapter, it says that Pattern hummed. I always took that him humming is whenever Shallan tells a lie. What lie is she telling here? to save the city? or am I misunderstanding the situation.
@39: It probably means that, while Shallan does want to save the city, it’s not really why she’s there.
Many @@@@@ above. I see a lot of reference to Fortune (with the “F” capitalized). What is Fortune? Is that another Shard. If so, was that the 4th Shard in the Roshar system? Or is Fortune located somewhere else, but someone who wants to fight/help Odium? Since Cultivation (I assume it was Cultivation rather than the Nightwatcher) gave King T his curse/boon, does that mean that Fortune and Cultivation are working together after Honor died?
A completely different aspect. Could Fortune have anything to do with the Sibling?
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Fortune is a category of Cosmere magic, like Connection. IIRC I don’t think there’s much known about it, other than that it involves luck somehow.
@@@@@ 41. Fortune is a building-block of the Cosmere, closely tied to the Spiritual Realm. Any time someone looks into the future on any level (atium, tapping a chromemind for feruchemic luck, the Diagram, Hoidsense) they are drawing upon that aspect of magic to achieve their aims. Since Fortune is on the same level as, say, Identity (as seen during every PoV of Soulcasting) or Connection (Stormlight Healing, Gravitation), it is more fundamental and less all-encompassing than a Shard is.
With that said, the exact wording of your questions allows me to give the following answers: See above, No, No, Technically not, Technically yes, and Technically yes.
Every moment of the conversation in this chapter is a delight. Though I make a face at Hoid’s critique of hedonism, on the immoral grounds that I have a thing for gluttons, in case you hadn’t noticed. :-p
Too bad this insightful discussion didn’t divert Shallan from her lethal new quest. But he evidently didn’t expect that, even if he quip-foreshadowed it nicely, as AndrewHB noted.
“Some men, as they age, grow wiser. I am not one of those, for wisdom and I have always been at cross-purposes, and I have yet to learn the tongue in which she speaks.” That reminds me pleasantly of Amber, in the Liveship Traders Trilogy by Robin Hobb, who said “I have always been more curious than wise. But any wisdom I have was gained through my curiosity, so I have not restrained it.” But I know they’re different.
Shallan would be a fun worldhopper to observe, with her snark, scholarly curiosity, and inclination to blend with the locals. But Lift would be even more fun, with her snark, healing-compassion, and appetite.
@14: Oh yeah. I want to see the Snarkmaster of the Greater Cosmere describe the adventures of the teamed-up Snarkmasters of Detritus, Nalthis, Western Roshar, and Second Era Scadrial.
When Hoid was telling the story about the crown, he was pointing out that Elhokar cares about being seen as a great king, while Gavilar and Dalinar use(d) their leadership positions to accomplish something they believed in. Strong leaders try to accomplish their goals. Weak leaders pander to those they should be leading. At least, that’s my take on it.
@ALL:
I meant SA in @21, it was a typo. Vasher is going to die in SA, IMHO, and he’ll do so fulfilling the mission that drove him to Return in the first place. Endowment foresaw that the best way to protect Nalthis from Odium was to ensure that he didn’t win on Roshar and she Returned the Five Scholars to achieve that outcome. That’s my theory and I am sticking to it.
Concerning the Sibling – didn’t Sanderson say that the Recreance happened over years or even decades? As far as I am concerned the timeline was something like:
Melishi, bonded to the Sibling, captured BAM and inadverently lobotomized the parsh. That hurt the Sibling, as it was clearly the opposite of the Bondsmith Oaths. We don’t know if Melishi survived the experience.
A number of Radiants was horrified by what happened and in combination with the fact that the enemy they were intended to fight seemed to be defeated once and for all and Honor’s ravings they were moved to break their oaths. That’s what we saw in the Feverstone Keep vision. “They were the first”, etc.
Sibling being hurt causes it’s gradual withdrawal from Urithiru, with a number of the tower’s functions failing as a result. This parallels Syl’s “dying” while Kaladin was focussed on revenge. We don’t know if Melishi was still around or if the last Bondsmith was bonded to a different Godspren and the Sibling was already unbonded, but severely hurt. If Melishi _was_ the last Bondsmith, he was between the rock and the hard place – in order to restore his Oaths he needed to release BAM. He chose not to do so and the Sibling drifted ever further into slumber, because as a Godspren it was robuster than the other spren.
As protective functions of the tower shut down, the Unmade try to move in? The Radiants capture as many as they can, make gem recordings and evacuate Urithiru amid the the raging debates about their perceived worthiness and future.
The final stages of the Recreance happen in Alethela and wherever else the Radiants moved to. It is possible that they didn’t have any Bondsmiths at that point.
Rather interesting, what Hoid says about cynisim:
“If I were, the very air would warp around me, sucking in all emotion, leaving only scorn.”
Is he hinting that he could have become Odium? It certainly sounds like that to me…
MauiWowee@34:
A very interesting theory. Personally, I am with the people who think that “will destroy us” applied to Dalinar as Odium’s champion. Thankfully, in the Cosmere prophecies of the future _aren’t_ set in stone and can be circumvented. Given the WoBs that hint – or maybe even outright admit, I don’t remember, that Aimians aren’t native to Roshar, I am not quite sure that they are as tightly connected to Cultivation as seemed likely when they appeared to have evolved on the planet.
@ineptmage
Odium is “a god” but he is not the Abrahamic God. He is not omniscient, and in this case he is simply wrong (in my opinion). We know Cultivation can hide things from him because he clearly doesn’t know where she is–he mentions that, if I remember right, to Venli. Taravangian’s abilities come from the Nightwatcher, Cultivation’s daughter.
@AeronaGreenjoy
Why would Terry Pratchett’s troll Watchman be in the Cosmere?
@Isilel
Very plausible. I personally theorize he will give up his divine Breath, finally, after all these centuries, to unite (some of) the splinters of Honor with some other divine-ish stuff (splinters of the defeated Odium?). Healing a divinity would presumably require divine-level healing … and that would make (SPOILERS FOLLOW) Lightsong’s healing of the God-Emperor foreshadowing.
Note that your theory (that Melishi killed the Sibling) would explain why Stormfather is so insistent that he won’t allow himself to be bonded in a way that will kill him. He saw it happen to his, um, sibling.
Not responding to anyone in particular:
Renarin can be wrong. And then Taravangian’s visions (that’s what they are) of the future impress Odium. The juxtaposition is not a coincidence. Brandon “Careful Plotting Guy” Sanderson was (I would bet) consciously hinting that Taravangian can also be wrong.
@47: Detritus is the planet where Skyward takes place. M-Bot, included in the proposed story, is one of the planet’s greatest snarkers, though it would have plenty of competition for the title of Snarkmaster, especially the protagonist. Detritus isn’t in the Cosmere, which is unfortunate because if everyone went for snarking cooperation instead of competition, it could field a Snark Team to rival Roshar’s.
@37 Scath, Thanks for the explanation. That still fits with my thought that Cultivation took a risk with Taravangian and him siding with Odium in such a final manner at the end of OB might not have been her plan. The end of this all can’t just be Cultivation popping out and being all like “Yo, everything went exactly like I thought and everything bad that happened was the perfect path to get to this happy conclusion!” Cultivation needs to mess up somewhere to add to the narrative (like how Odium messed up by agreeing to the challenge and then failing to convert Dalinar).
@47 Carl, I agree that Odium being wrong is a believable explanation, but I’m saying it isn’t a satisfying explanation. This is an entity that knows more about Fortune and the Spiritual Realm than nearly any other character we’ve seen talk in the entirety of the Cosmere stories and for him to make a statement with Cosmere-wide implications that touches on capital Fortune and capital Spiritual Realm and for it to be WRONG? That’s just not satisfying and I question the inclusion of such a powerful statement in the narrative if it is just a mistake by Odium that’s misleading the reader’s understanding of the Cosmere. And sure, Cultivation can hide things from Odium, but Odium has to know Taravangian’s power came from Cultivation (through the Nightwatcher). What reason could he possibly have for incorrectly assuming that Cultivation didn’t grant Taravangian access to Fortune?
@46 Isilel, @47 Carl, Warbreaker was originally conceived, in part, as a prequel for Kaladin’s sword master, right? It then stands to reason that Vasher would have a significant role in the Stormlight Archive. However, if he’s to have a meaningful impact with his divine Breath, it seems like the character will have to be much more involved in the story before that happens (including an explanation of his backstory) or it will feel like too-convenient-random-magic-arrives-to-save-the-day for a reader of only SA. I think with the arrival of Azure and the prominence of Nightblood in Oathbringer, I would be surprised if Vasher didn’t get a bigger role moving forward, so this all seems to fit together nicely.
@46: I would place Feverthorn Keep towards the end of the timeline, because none of the gemstone recordings (that were made as they were preparing to abandon Urithiru) mention anything like that. Granted, we have not seen all of the recordings, but I think that if the present-day scholars were to come across something like that, it would make a big impact.
@47: I wouldn’t say that Renarin can be wrong (even if he phrases it that way himself), rather he acts to change the future. He saw Jasnah killing him. Because he knew it was coming, he turned to face it and accepted it, the very act which caused Jasnah to second guess her decision. Because Renarin wasn’t killed, he was able to save Adolin when he came back through Honor’s perpendicularity (Lift might have been able to do it, but IIRC, she was off chasing Honor’s Drop with Szeth at the time). If both of his sons had died, Dalinar might have despaired enough to let Odium in, and become his Champion (something else Renarin had foreseen).
To quote Ebenezer Scrooge: “Are these the shadows of things that will be? Or things that may be, only? If I depart from my course can they change? Say it is thus with what you show me!”
@44. AeronaGreenjoy
Snarkmaster of the Greater Cosmere would have to be Alcatraz.
@50 LazerWulf, Wow, the idea that Renarin foreseeing Jasnah killing him and that affecting his actions ultimately leading to Dalinar resisting becoming Odium’s Champion is super interesting! I had assumed that Odium’s/Diagram’s blind spot being Renarin-related was indicating some upcoming Renarin-makes-things-unpredictable effects; but this could have been the big thing already, if you’re right.
@AeronaGreenjoy
Yes, I know. I was joking because nobody, nobody, outsnarks a Pratchett character.
@ineptmage (#48), I think “everyone is fallible” a major theme of the Stormlight Archive. Odium being wrong plays right into that. Odium himself is canonically not especially good at futuresight (as Shards go).
@LazerWulf: “I wouldn’t say that Renarin can be wrong (even if he phrases it that way himself), rather he acts to change the future.”
That’s just a reason he can be wrong. His visions are still sometimes wrong.
@53: I guess that depends on your definition of “wrong”. These are not self-fulfilling prophesies, in which trying to prevent them actually causes them to happen. The future is mutable, changeable. The visions he sees are what would happen if he hadn’t had the vision (I mean the specific vision of Jasnah killing him. If he hadn’t been getting the visions at all, she would have had no reason to try to kill him) or if he acted differently or did nothing at all after getting the vision. The fact that that future doesn’t happen because of his actions doesn’t negate the fact that they are true visions of one possible future.
If anyone is registered to 17th Shard, hop on over and read a fanfic titled Tragedy at Thaylen Field. It’s pretty much a narrative exploration of what would have happened had Renarin’s vision come true and Dalinar actually gave his pain to Odium. (And no I didn’t write it). Alternative timeline things.
A possibility for how Cultivation gets to hide things from Odium is because Roshar is where her seat of power lies in the PR. Odium is based on Braize and so must act remotely. Things get lost in transmission. Culti can act directly, can focus more of her power while the battlefield is on her home turf. For Odium, to act directly too much on Roshar is to open himself up to a strike from Cultivation that cripples him. Just spitballing here.
What fun we would have if we could observe a bull session with the great snark masters of the greater Cosmere with Sir Terry as master of ceremonies and a panel of Discworld judges. To be a fly on the wall in that room!
@53 Carl, Fine, everyone is fallible. But in this case, is this adding to that theme? Odium just had an enormous foible which proves his fallibility in which he was very very wrong about Dalinar joining him. Being wrong again a few moments later at a time in which the average reader would have no idea (without WoB) that he was wrong doesn’t move the needle much on proving Odium can make mistakes. I’m accepting that Odium is wrong here and that it is plausible. I’m just frustrated by it. We get very very few instances of characters who Know Things explaining things like Connection, Identity, and Fortune and so when that happens, I don’t like having to disregard the information or classify it as possibly wrong. This isn’t a throwaway sentence when referring to Cosmere stuff. Sanderson included it for a reason. Having that reason be to show that Odium doesn’t have a clue what’s going on is not a very satisfying one.
@@@@@ 56 ineptmage
I always got the impression that Odium’s question to Taravangian was a suspicious one, like “You didn’t have access to Fortune? Really?” and that he felt he needed to make a deal with Taravangian BECAUSE he thought the Diagram was a Fortune-driven prediction.
@56 To be fair, Odium is also the current antagonist, so we should already take his words with a grain of salt, there’s no real reason for him to admit anything truly groundbreaking that we can forever trust. Now if it was Khriss, and it was revealed she was the big bad, or even Hoid with all of his hints and we can’t trust what they have said is more reason for a disappointment I feel. especially since, there are already have been hints with Fortune with Hoid, so its not even that ground breaking, and we have had hints before with Honor admitting that he had difficiutly with seeing the future as well.
@57 Ulim, Actually, this resolves my dissatisfaction completely. Odium isn’t wrong. Cultivation hasn’t tricked him. Odium is lying to Taravangian. “Great job Taravangian, you did something remarkably unlikely! You were so lucky! Too bad you don’t have access to Fortune; you’ll never be able to replicate this. Now… let’s make a deal.” Great insight, thanks!
So here’s my little theory on Cultivation and King T (sorry I’m not going to spell his name out). Remember King T asked for the capacity to save the world. Now, afterward he took the high intelligence he has on some days as that capacity, thus the Diagram, being the product of that intelligence, is what he assumes can save the world. But what if he is wrong. What if the capacity to save the world comes on the other days, when his empathy is high, but his intelligence is not. In other words, he doesn’t know that the empathy was the boon and the intelligence the cost.
@60 Brent, King T “begged for compassion and acumen” not just vague “capacity to save the world.” So I (and he, in fact) think the boon is that he was given both compassion (empathy) and acumen (intelligence). The curse is that he doesn’t get them at the same time.
Wall of text warning… I finally caught up on the comments!
@Many – Sorry, I should have clarified that Renarin & the Odium vision was the context for that “seeing the future” WoB I referenced. I wasn’t thinking about its application to that particular event, so I was unclear. My apologies.
Carl @18 – “I think I already posted: Stormfather is a splinter (son) of Honor. Nightwatcher is explicitly called Cultivation’s daughter. “The Sibling” pretty much as to be the result of Shard-sex between those two.” I seriously doubt it. WoB implies that both SF and NW existed on Roshar before Honor and Cultivation arrived, and it seems most likely that their Sibling did as well. It’s just that those two matched well with the Intent of the two Shards, and the Sibling didn’t so much. Also, if the Vessels had children, they would be human(ish), not a spren; if the two spren had a child, they’d hardly call it their sibling.
Scath @30 – “So as technology advances, and the population begins to think of space more, it would make the distance in the cognitive realm grow which would then necessitate finding alternative means of travel.” I believe this is incorrect. From what I understand of the Cognitive realm, the reason “space” is smaller is not that people are unaware of “space,” but that there’s not much stuff between the worlds to reflect into the Cognitive realm. The relevant WoB would be:
soursavior @31 – My belief is that the Bondsmith at the time of the gemstone archive (which may or may not have been the last one) was bonded to the Nightwatcher. The comments about the Sibling withdrawing seem to preclude them, and there are other factors that make the Stormfathr unlikely, IMO. (I’ll pull those out later…)
LazerWulf @33 – “And I think the only way to know that The Sib was changing was if someone was bonded to it at the time.” I disagree – many people are quite aware of the SF and the NW without being bonded to them. Additionally, much of the evaluation of the Sibling changing is based on the changing functionality of Urithiru, which is observable by anyone who lives there.
MauiWowee @34 – “…if the Aimians are 100% of Cultivation / her most powerful pawns / tools / soldiers (I don’t remember if we’ve received confirmation on that or if it’s just a theory)…” Per WoB,
So… kind of? I think it’s mostly a theory. There are hints that they aren’t native to Roshar, either.
Steven @39 – “…it says that Pattern hummed. I always took that him humming is whenever Shallan tells a lie.” Pretty sure that’s not correct. There are a number of times when he hums because he’s interested in something, or he’s acknowledging Shallan’s directions, or he’s pleased with himself, or … lots of reasons.
LazerWulf @50 – Nice! I personally agree with your Renarin summary; it makes sense to me.
Brent @60 – I’m so sure Taravangian is wrong about everything that I totally agree! Then again, ineptmage makes a good point @61 – he probably needs both. Maybe his greatest capacity to save will come on a day when he’s just average on both compassion and intelligence. My biggest concern with that (and I can totally see this happening) is that he’ll miss the critical moment because he thinks he needs a high-intelligence day, or else that he’ll know the right thing to do but will be countermanded by Mrall and/or Adrotagia because they think he’s not smart enough that day.
Could the sibling be the “god” that helped the horneaters live in the peaks? The story that rock tells about in wok, seems to imply a powerful spren helped make the peaks livable, ie temperatures, air pressure, pasturable land. Which is what the tower needs to function properly.
The horneater peaks are Cultivation’s work. Her shardpool is there, too (Rock saw Hoid come out of it).
@62 Wetlandernw
So got a lot to catch up on, but I just wanted to drop by quick to answer this first. This is the WoB I was referring to shown below. I bolded the part about the island, and regarding people thinking about it making it appear in the cognitive realm and thereby affecting the landscape of the cognitive realm and the space between. So by developing technologies such as telescopes, and satellites and etc would cause the civilization to become more aware of heavenly bodies as places, which would then reflect in the cognitive realm which would then add distance between them and could get to the point where space travel becomes more time efficient than walking in the cognitive realm.
Questioner
So like as far as distance traveled in Shadesmar.
Brandon Sanderson
Mhm
Questioner
So when Kelsier…
Brandon Sanderson
Yeah.
Questioner
…in Shadesmar. He meets the Ire, who are presumably Elantrian.
Brandon Sanderson
Yes.
Questioner
Like how far did he travel? Is that still within Scadrial’s realm of the Cognitive Realm?
Brandon Sanderson
Yeah, that’s within– he has s– By the time he meets them he has slipped right to the edge of the Cognitive Realm on Scadrial and into kind of the darkness between planets.
Questioner
Okay.
Brandon Sanderson
He’s close enough that he can get there. But he’s kind of suffused with Scadrian Investiture then, to a point that it would be harder–you saw in there–for him to get further. I would say that he’s like… He has entered space between planets, but he’s not out of the solar system.
Questioner
Okay, so he’s <still there> in the Scadrian system, just…
Brandon Sanderson
Yeah, yep.
Questioner
Okay, just edging it there.
Brandon Sanderson
Yeah, mhm. That’s what I’d say if I had to actually point <at> him. I would get really fuzzy though, because it wouldn’t be too much longer before he enters another solar system. Like he would pass lightyears in steps as he starts getting further, if that makes any sense.
Questioner
That makes sense, because, I mean, with worldhopping in general it’s like… You can only… I mean it’s… I don’t know how the time dilation works per se, but…
Brandon Sanderson
It’s not– there’s not much time dilation. What you’ve got going on is… Things that people aren’t around to think about, things without minds or any sort of life, don’t manifest on Shadesmar very much at all. And so the space between planets gets really small, unless there’s another planet out there with thinking beings or at least some sort of life on it. Like even lower lifeforms, you’ll get something manifesting on Shadesmar. But yeah.
Questioner
Okay. So the Cognitive Realm, in Shadesmar…
Brandon Sanderson
Yeah.
Questioner
…in the Cognitive Realm… It’s kind of the… Any kind of sentient or cognitive life– that’s what is building Shadesmar?
Brandon Sanderson
Yeah, yeah.
Questioner
So like anything where there’s blackness… is like… condensed or–
Brandon Sanderson
Yes, yes. Particularly if no one’s thinking about it? If people are thinking about it.. like, for instance, an island in the ocean that was scoured of all life and even bacteria would still manifest in Shadesmar on that planet because people are aware of it and things like this. But one on the other side of the planet, that no one ever knew about it, probably wouldn’t.
Questioner
So that same island, if people just stopped thinking about it or like stopped being aware it’s *inaudible* would it…
Brandon Sanderson
It could slowly vanish, yes. And so– But that’s more of a thought experiment. You’re never gonna have a planet that that happens to, you know cause…
Questioner
Right.
Brandon Sanderson
But thought experiment wise, yes, that would eventually kind of get consumed by Shadesmar and vanish. The same thing would happen to a planet that you strip the atmosphere from–all the bacteria and life dies on it–you know, slowly going to vanish. But a moon will still manifest because people are thinking about it. It’ll just not– it won’t– it’ll be hoakie, it’ll be weird–the moon will be. Like you might find a little patch that represents the moon. Something like that.
Questioner
That’s interesting.
Brandon Sanderson
You’re not gonna find the full landscape of the moon until people start visiting it. And it’s gonna grow on Shadesmar.
This is all so interesting – I always learn so much about other aspects of the Cosmere on these threads. And it’s kind of incredible that he even has answers to give for all of this!
Also, I appreciate that he takes care to mention ‘even bacteria’ :)
@65: That’s interesting. I wonder what Salas, Nomon, and Mishim look like from Shadesmar? Because people obviously think about them. They’ve even ascribed personalities to them (“Mishim was the cleverest of the three moons”).
I wonder what the Cognitive Realm would look like if the Cosmere were populated by beings without the tendency to anthropomorphosize inanimate objects. Probably pretty barren.
Ok, now finally have a chance to catch up. Here we go
@46 Isilel
Interesting theory about Vasher! If that is the case then Endowment is truly playing the long game.
Not sure about the Recreance taking place over years, though I do know Tanavast’s death took awhile so he got to see the Recreance occur. I will dig when I can and see if I can find anything
Interesting theory on Melishi. Maybe whatever is learned from Adolin potentially reviving Maya (in any of the myriad of theories regarding them), something could be learned to bring back the Sibling if your theory is the case?
@49 ineptmage
No problem. Oh I whole heartily agree it is all a risk to Cultivation. I almost feel like she should have the nickname “Gambler” because if even half the theories about her are right, that woman sure is rolling those dice lol. It would fit into her shard as cultivation is all about guided growth. You can point something in the right direction (with pruning, or tie it to a post, or any other gardening analogy), but it still has to voluntarily grow that way. I think that is why Cultivation has her fingers in so many pies. To keep the odds in her favor even if they don’t all grow the way she wants. That is why I theorize she is playing with Lift, Renarin, Dalinar, and Taravangian.
Well the thing to consider is WoB give us a peek behind the curtain to help us understand things better. There are WoB that contradict the book in the past, till a plot point came along and then it all made sense. The 17th shard (the website not the group) has been theorizing about (mistborn spoilers) medallions forever, long before there was even a hint of them in the books. Basically I am not saying you are wrong to not like the answer, but I am saying maybe it is not the full answer? Maybe in the next book something will come up to make you go “oooooooo so that’s why Odium was wrong! That’s awesome!” Just my own thoughts on the matter.
@66 Lisemarie
The amount of stuff Brandon takes into account always boggles my mind. That’s why I tend to try and give him the benefit of the doubt on some things. I feel the guy works harder than any author I have read on keeping things consistent, he deserves a break every so often lol.
@67 LazerWulf
Good point. Add to that that the moons were artificially made with whatever their true purpose lost ages ago could have played into how they got viewed over the centuries.
@68 EvilMonkey
That is an interesting question. How could spren appear differently to different species. Fun thing to think about!
From the WoB, thinking about space wouldn’t make it bigger in the Cognitive, or not much. You’d have to have lots of life in interstellar space for that to happen.
Which of course implies that the Cosmere does not have lots of interstellar life “right now” as of the SA.
@70 Carl
Good point. It also got me thinking of a question that came up during Arcanum Unbound (Khriss mentioning the 17th shard observing Sixth of Dusk’s planet but not going to the physical realm because of how dangerous it is). How does one observe the physical realm from the cognitive realm? Could it be like how Jasnah can peer into the cognitive realm from the physical realm but in reverse? Can a moon in an uninhabited portion of the cosmere gain a presence in the cognitive if someone traveling in the cognitive realm peeks out and sees it? Shadesmar just keeps getting more interesting! lol
@69 Should this be Cultivation’s Theme Song?
@72 BenW
Lol, cannot check the link at this time. What is the song? Why do I feel like it is going to be Kenny Rogers? lolol
@73 You are correct. Smily face/shit-eating grin.
@74 BenW
Maybe Cultivation’s symbol, or the Old Magic’s symbol should be a dice then lolol
@75 You make me smile.
@76 BenW
Lol glad to brighten your day.
Random thought I had. I wonder how Hoid would organize the shards in the boulder scenario. Which ones would point and say look what I did, which would try to stop it and get crushed, and so on? So far looks like Honor might fall into the crushed department lol.
@77 Scath, Seems like Honor certainly caused some boulder deviation as well. Maybe sometimes the shover gets squished.
@78 ineptmage
In which case it is not so much the action of trying to stop the boulder as how big of a speed bump your corpse can be to divert it LOL. That humor took a decidedly dark turn lol.
Scath @65 – I read that same WoB, but I interpret it differently than you do. I don’t think people being aware of “space” as a concept is going to make it bigger in the Cognitive. There still have to be objects to have cognitive reflections, IMO, and space is pretty much an absence of such objects. I guess we’ll have to RAFO what develops… about 30 years from now, probably! (Unless someone can get him to answer a more direct question about it between now and then.)
Scath @69 – “Add to that that the moons were artificially made” – We don’t know that the moons were artificially made; only that their orbits are artificial.
@80 Wetlandernw
I agree, the Cognitive Realm won’t expand to be the same size as the Physical Realm just because people have telescopes; there would need to be stuff or life in space to think about (and think about in a way where the lengthscale of that stuff was familiar to those thinking about it).
There are some interesting other potential ways for which the Cognitive Realm to expand, however. The rules on this are (probably intentionally) fuzzy, but there is at least some component of truth to the idea that the “vertical” direction in the Physical Realm can be mapped to a “horizontal” direction in the Cognitive Realm; such as other planets can be reached in the Cognitive by moving horizontally. Now, what would happen if, in a well-established and populated area of the Physical Realm, a vast and DEEP cavern were discovered, explored, settled, and thought about. Would there be a new expansion horizontally in the Cognitive to account for the new space? Or would there be a cavern-type thing in the down direction in the Cognitive sea of spheres? What would that even look like since land in the Physical is “water” in the Cognitive? And if that’s the case, why is the vertical direction here different than the vertical direction in the cases of planets or moons?
The hand-wavy answer would be something like “it depends on how it is perceived/thought about.” But if that’s the case, what if different populations think about the same place differently? For that matter, what if there is a species and civilization that live by walking around at the bottom of an ocean? They would think of the bottom of that ocean in the way we think about land. What does that look like in the Cognitive Realm? And then a species on the same planet, but on land thinks about that same area as water.
Sorry for the bizarre tangent, but now I want answers!
@80 Wetlandernw
Perhaps if I clarify what I meant. First, do we know every single planet, star, moon and asteroid has already been discovered and settled on? I do not believe that is the case. The WoB I posted indicates when something is viewed, and thought of, it gains a cognitive presence in the cognitive realm. Brandon used the example of a moon. That it would have a bit of a presence, but it would have to be visited for it to grow. My question is then does sending drones that take pictures and readings of a moon or planet count? He stated bacteria can be considered. “Space bears” have been proven to survive the vacuum of space. If some of those hitched a ride on a drone exploring a moon, and began to hang out there, would the moon then get a greater cognitive presence? And that is just considering moons. Now lets say a traveler in the cognitive realm (potentially as we do not know if it is possible to look from the cognitive into the physical the same way you can look from the physical into the cognitive) peered into the physical realm while traveling a caravan route in the cognitive. He or she discovers a uninhabited planet. He or she hops over and begins to set up shop. More people join that person. The planet then not only gets a cognitive presence, but balloons into a huge presence based on the growing population. Would you say the caravan path that was once short and well established is no longer useful? Now the people traveling through the cognitive realm have all this extra space they have to traverse. So it is either go around/find another route, or potentially get hours added to their commute to travel across the newly discovered planet. Now lets consider areas that are heavily populated by planets and moons like Roshar for instance. The Roshar System has 10 outer moons/planets, three planets and then three moons for Roshar’s planet. Those 10 outer moons/planets plus Roshar’s personal 3 moons going from just a blip on the cognitive realm, to full on locations once they start to get explored I think would change the cognitive realm landscape enough that travel to and from Roshar could slow down significantly. Now lets say you need to travel through the Rosharan system to get to another system? Perhaps in that circumstance would you say Faster than Light travel would be more efficient than walking through 16 celestial bodies in the cognitive realm? Hopefully that clarified what I was getting at.
Regarding the moons, my bad. I think I jumped to the conclusion because Roshar was made by Adonalsium, so I assumed the moons were as well. But you are correct the only confirmation we have so far is that the orbits are artificial because they could not have come about naturally.
@81 ineptmage
There is actually a WoB, which is frustrating to find the last time I had to locate it, but I will try and find it again, where Brandon admits things would get a bit weird/wonky if there was an underwater civilization and how that would manifest in the cognitive. The wording is what screws me up on it because the person doesn’t blatantly say it that way. I will post when I pull it up!
Scáth @82:
I too can’t wait to find out how travel through the cognitive works. Like, is it possible to go _around_ an inhabited planet through empty space? By the rules we know so far, it should be much quicker to do so, than to go through the cognitive of such a planet. OTOH, Roshar is supposed to be a hub of cognitive travel, even though crossing it on spren ships takes quite a bit of time and must be fairly expensive, so maybe it is somehow impossible to just go around it? Maybe cognitive reflections of planets have “gravity” that draws people in out of the empty interstellar space?
This is why I’d really love for Sanderson to write a story about somebody discovering the worldhopping for themselves – so that we can learn how it works and how people react to the stupendous revelation that they can travel to other worlds.
@83 Isilel
I agree. So many questions and mysteries about Shadesmar that even a whole section on it in oathbringer only resulted in even further questions! lol
@82 Scath
Thanks for clarifying. I understand your argument now and I kind of agree with it as you’ve framed it now. I was thinking (and based on Wetlandernw’s phrasing choice, probably she was thinking too) that you meant “space” as in the vacuum of nothingness between celestial objects. But moons and previously uninhabited planets popping up between existing locations in the Cognitive Realm once explored and/or settled makes sense. Your original wording made it sound like you were talking about space in general or maybe space as the absence of stuff between objects specifically.
Edit: And I would love to see that WoB if you dig it up. Glad to know there might be an answer to this. Projecting 3D realities into a pseudo-2D plane would definitely take some wonkiness even without the further complicating rules about the liquid-solid relationships. Like what would happen if you take a square-shaped patch of existence (Physical and Cognitive), build a giant circular wall around a place in the center of the square, kill all life inside the walls, and then prevent anyone from ever viewing inside it long enough for it to fade from existence in the Cognitive. What kind of geometry does that square have in the Cognitive now? A square with a patch of nothingness in the center? But the nothingness should shrink away. Hand-wavy explanation of space distortion so that the seams of the circle all coincide at the center of the square?
@85 ineptmage
Sorry for the confusion on my wording. Glad it makes sense now :)
As to the WoB, I am trying lol. It drove me nuts like this finding it last time for a facebook post. I posted it in a thread on a group on facebook last time I found it. Do you know a way to search past posts in a group on facebook that goes back months? That might end up easier in the long run lol. I always try water, underwater, water cognitive, water shadesmar, and what always gets me is its an off the cuff mention in the WoB so none of those words are directly said, so its hard as hell to search for on arcanum. Once I get it, I will post it, hopefully won’t take me too long.
@86 Scath
Is it this one? If so, it’s pretty much just like I said as its just a hand-wavy explanation about how it was thought about/perceived.
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8678
Edit: For what it’s worth, I searched “Shadesmar ocean” and it was one of the first few. “Shadesmar ocean civilization” gets it as the first result.
@87 ineptmage
LOL yep that is the one. What kept screwing me up is I would say water or sea, but forget to write ocean. I actually did find it on my facebook by searching the group for underwater because of someone else’s thread I posted it to. So yep, weird and wonky just like you said! lol
@Scáth,
You are, I believe, referring to “water bears” (tardigrades). They can “survive” the vacuum of space in the same sense that they “survive” being frozen in liquid nitrogen, by ceasing all metabolic activity. In fact they dehydrate, essentially becoming a lump of dried flesh until water is added. They get all the press, but other simple organisms (notably certain insect larvae) can also do this.
I don’t think “temporarily dead” tardigrades would have any effect on the Cognitive Realm. That’s what it boils down to.
Why yes, that’s pedantry. Why yes, I’m a former biology teacher.
Hmm … I’m a book nerd. (Surprise! Someone who participates here reads lots of books!) I wonder what the Cognitive Aspect of a book, which is basically concentrated thought, would look like. Are there writingspren? Glyphspren? Why not? Does no one on Roshar think about writing enough to generate spren?
@89 Carl
Correct me if I am wrong, but aren’t there theories that life on some planets “started” when an asteroid carrying bacteria collides with an uninhabited planet that just so happens to be in the right orbital range with the central star for that bacteria to get started? So the reason why I mentioned the tardigrades (called them space bears as a joke, and if you google that phrase they do come up lol), is if they were to somehow hitch a ride, they would survive the travel, and could potentially re-animate upon reaching a potentially hospitable planet. Since Brandon said bacteria could help result in a cognitive presence, I wondered if the same could stand for tardigrades when they reached the planet and “revived”. Based on your explanation, I think they would since their “deadness” is temporary and they could survive the trip with no discernible ill effects.
As to a book, it would get a stone in the cognitive realm because it is an object that is no longer seen as a tree, nor as pages, but as one whole in the book. As to spren there are logic spren that pop up during thoughtful research and discussion, as well as Ivory is what it termed an “ink spren”. So that could be what you are thinking of.
@Scáth, revived tardigrades would certainly count as alive, they’re far more complex than bacteria and actually have, you know, nerves and even brains.
You’re referring to Fred Hoyle’s panspermia, I believe. (He and Wickramasinghe didn’t coin the term but the model you’re describing is theirs.) Allow me to list all the evidence for panspermia:
@91 Carl
The chief problem with panspermia seems to be finding proof that life on earth originated elsewhere. But there are examples of bacterium, and the forementioned tardigrades surviving space travel. There are even “planetary protection” procedures in place to try and prevent such contamination. In the Cosmere we would know there was in fact life on other planets. Theoretically all it would take is for a person to discover a hospitable planet from the cognitive realm, and take a look see. The bacteria and such that hung out on the person’s clothes, body, etc would thereby find a new home without any need of surviving in a vacuum. So if anything panspermia would be a whole lot more feasible in the Cosmere than in real life.